Cheers from New England

[baghdasar93]

93,

I'm one of the recent refugees from Lashtal—although to be fair, I was primarily a lurker over the last few years. I've been actively studying the works of Grant and related topics since the early 00's and in lieu of going extensively into my background (it's really not all that interesting), I thought I'd offer up a topic for discussion.

I've noticed that many Thelemites tend to adopt a position that falls into two camps—which may be inevitable in any given strand of philosophy. The orthodox view, which establishes Thelema as being co-equal to Crowley as prophet and nothing BUT Crowley as prophet, vs. a heterodox view, which views Thelema as an evolving current with ramifications far beyond Crowley.

I've seen the former view more common in the legally recognized OTO. Sadly, this often includes outright hostility towards the latter which tends to codify itself as an incredibly rigid and dogmatic interpretation. On the other hand, there's also the potential for any heterodoxy to define itself solely as in terms of its opposition to orthodoxy. To be fair, I haven't seen this among Typhonians all that often. I'm just indicating that the potential IS there.

I'd like to think this split is entirely unnecessary and that one of the hallmarks of the New Aeon IS the dissolution of opposing views (" Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing...") I seem to recall none other than Bill Breeze even stating so much in his lead editorial to the Equinox 3:10; but then again, I haven't seen a copy in years (it says something that the OTO won't even keep their propaganda in print, but I'm not certain what it says.)

Is there potential for a happy medium? Or are our puny monkey minds incapable of escaping this sort of binary opposition? It's nice to think that we're capable of maintaining an attitude of non-attachment, but I'm not certain if human history bears that out.

Apologies for being so long-winded. I'm a Sagittarius and... 

Fr. B

[stephen]

Welcome to the Forums, Frater B.

93. I am not sure that the two camps dichotomy is entirely relevant to the state of Thelema-orientated magickal philosophy anymore. Certainly, I have no cause to admire "the legally recognized OTO" in its progress to becoming a corporate religious institution, in fact, I find it rather boring. I had cause to look at their AGAPE, Official Organ, Summer 2023 issue last year and it was all NOTOCONS and schedules for initiations, with a few short essays on the Gnostic Mass thrown in. However, let them get on with it.

Clearly the Typhonian Order is aligned with a Thelema beyond Crowley orientation, which makes it more attractive to those of an independent and creative nature. But this is not to deny or reject the fundamental significance of Crowley's work, or conveniently put aside The Book of the Law. Just the other day, I noticed a post on Facebook by someone extolling his familiarity with various editions of Liber AL and expressing his preferences, and who finished with the observation that "I find the first two chapters useful" - as if you can simply ignore the things you may not like or attempt to understand. (Facebook can be both so informative and so disillusioning in equal measure.)

Personally, I do not recognise a fundamental split, but then again the consideration of such a state of affairs does not particularly interest me:
..So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.  Do that, and no other shall say nay.

93, 93/93.

Stephen

[kylefite]

Yes, welcome to the forums here!

I am largely in agreement with Stephen that a former clashing of views which once seemed significant (to myself, anyhow) is now simply irrelevant. I have a few nice interactions online with folks involved in OTO, Inc these days but don't care at all, really, what the organization is doing or has to say. There was a time when the rightful use of those three letters was a source of contention and combat in the courts. When the Typhonian OTO lost on appeal, they simply sloughed off the old dry coils and emerged, like the Owl-Serpent on the Lamen, as Ordo Typhonis. Coagula et Solve!

When I first became fascinated with Crowley and his works, I devoured all I could-and through this endless study met many of his cohorts, companions and disciples. Because of the nature of AC's revelations and teachings, this company all seemed organized around the central figure of the Beast. For example, Achad was recognized as the prophesied Magical Son. He played his role in the matrix of Crowley's Thelema. It would be later on that I saw how Crowley was also playing his own role in the matrix of Achad's magical universe, NO LESS SIGNIFICANT-for every man and every woman is a star!

I think that latter part, oft cited and tossed about in Thelemic circles, is vital. In many instances, it seems as if there is a competition, some kind of magical arm-wrestling contest, going down. Who is the most Initiated? Who's tightest with the Secret Chiefs THIS Equinox? Crowley needed to be bigger and better than Mathers. Achad was led to go past the paradigm AC expected subservience to. Lots of bitter feelings to go around. But if we realize we MUST, of necessity, exist in our own Magical Universe as its "Central Sun" (the Subject for all perceived Objects) and that such is the case for EVERY ONE, then we may understand ourselves and our potential differently than those who become trapped in another's reality tunnel, one which only allows so much movement within its impositional hierarchy.

[parsifal]

This is an illuminating thread, and thanks for starting it, Frater B. I feel that the ideological rancor we sometimes see with corporate OTO is a microcosm of the world writ large. We see similar dynamics everywhere, from sectarianism in Islam (Sunnis versus Shiites), in Christianity (modernist Catholics versus traditionalists), and even in politics, which seems to have become religion of sorts these days (MAGA Americans, who are the "patriots," the “real” Americans, versus liberal Americans, who are the traitors and socialists etc.). These forms of self-identification begin to seem mindless after a while. They essentially lead nowhere. I say this as someone who has engaged in various forms of self-identification myself, ever seeking but never finding. I agree that they are a trap and that a focus on one's own unique “Central Sun” is indeed the only possible way out of the trap. This discussion is timely, too, as the anniversary of the reception of Liber AL begins on Monday. “I am the flame that burns in every heart of man, and in the core of every star” (II:6).

[baghdasar93]

93,

All three of you make salient points. I suppose my question wasn't necessarily intended to dredge up the cOTO vs Typhonian rift (for the sake of transparency, I was active in the former some 20 odd years ago) but to bring up a fundamental question. Thelema (at least for me) is an innately elastic philosophy which focuses on an individual (and entirely subjective) interpretation and perspective. Some of us may have wildly divergent or (wildly sympathetic) points of view, but whether not those points of view conflict or are aligned is relevant only so much as they pertain to our OWN particular orbit as sovereign... well, stars. Dogma implies the POTENTIAL for heresy—and vice versa. If Thelema IS ultimately subject to the orbit of our own individual khabs, can either dogma or heterodoxy exist in what essentially is an open system?

At the same time, any philosophy is contingent on some form of internal coherence, even if it contradicts itself at times (just look at AC's old and new commentaries on CCXX for pertinent examples.) And in order to be viable, that philosophy will need to express itself. The role or value of a 'prophet' may have changed, but the need for consistency may not have. Is that coherence necessarily limiting or stultifying by default? Conversely, does innovation and reinterpretation necessarily mean the evolution of a philosophy? Can it also be on par with dilution and outright degradation? We may be 'divided, for love's sake'—but can that love accept a perspective that isn't just opposite from our own, but downright inimical to it?

Perhaps success really is the only proof. Just look at Elon...

(Eh, I really didn't mean to invoke the name of someone who is synonymous with the euphemism "chinless Nazi collaborator." A thousand pardons.)

[kylefite]

Fr. B-

I am going to suggest that you begin a new thread on these themes outside the Introductions (simply because there is already some swirling energy around this and I think this discussion deserves a dedicated forum topic!). You should feel free to cut and paste anything written already and kick us off into further focused dialogue.

Glad you are here!

[Aliana]

From my point of view, Thelema is evolving.

I do most certainly sense the energy of change and renewal in the air.

For some, the next step is Maat. In my temple, the next step is Agape.

[edit]

Sorry if that was a bit vague. I tend to focus, sometimes, on the feminine aspects of universality. 

Consider nut: then mut or maut rather than maat.

The difference is literally night and day.

Agape, or Love, is the way of Thelema, will. Both words are 93, and the manifestation of mut is the way of the temple.

I believe that love, or sex magick, is the war engine. Aleisterion, my teacher, has expounded this to me in a way that makes perfect sense. As in previous times, like in the era of Jesus, people usually expect a literal fulfillment of prophecies, yet mostly the actual result is something else.

Aleister Crowley did explain this in the Confessions! The real war is Horus versus Osiris. Now, we also have this other transition, I think, from Horus to Maut.

Maut is the vulture goddess. The sexual connotation is, I think, fairly obvious. Love, I think, is the way of the secret temple, in the cultural and social warfare against primitive spiritual energies that, in my opinion, have already lost, they just don't realize it yet.

I'm so sorry if I'm being difficult or obscure. Obviously there is so, so, so much more to it than this! So so so little time. 






 

[baghdasar93]

93 Sr. ALiana,

I'm only just seeing this reply now. If you're not aware of it, there's a particular road to Oshun in Ifa known as Ibu Kolé (the spirit of the river who transforms) which is also associated with the vulture (one of her sacred names is Chief Priestess of the Vulture.) While Oshun is the orisha of beauty and sexuality (not necessarily characteristics I'd associate with Maut), perhaps the association with a carrion bird of prey and sexuality can be summed up in the euphemism of "le petit mort?" Might be a bit of a stretch, but it's one worth pondering.