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Post by Marc on Oct 7, 2013 17:48:25 GMT
The only material I have read so far regarding Michael Bertiaux is through the Typhonian Trilogies. I am wondering if anyone has read the Voudon Gnostic Workbook and/or the 4 year course from Monastery of the 7 Rays? I would love some insight as I am planning to dive into these works soon.
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Post by nyar261 on Oct 8, 2013 0:12:41 GMT
I've read through most of the VGN and the ist year of the Monastery courses. I don't claim to have worked firsthand with more than a small percentage of the material (primarily the "lucky hoodoo" and Grimoire Ghedhe work from the VGN, and some of the Guzotte work which was already akin to what I was working with already. The Monastery lessons, in my opinion, are useful as a guide and a history to the overall magickal approach of the Bertiaux work, but needless to say there isn't a wide-ranging active initiatory organization there any more to support it, although there was for a time in the 70s and 80s. The VGN work, while still in many respects requiring a direct connection to the initiatory lineage for fullest advantage, has a lot more openings within it for self-initiation into many different aspects and currents and approaches. It's not a unified, beginning-to-end course like the Monastery lessons, but rather a collection of many very different approaches to the mysteries of Gnostic Voudon. If one section of the VGN lessons is too incomprehensible or just causes a "WTF??!?" vibe, try a different set. All roads lead to Leogane.
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Post by Marc on Oct 8, 2013 2:39:55 GMT
Interesting..thanks for that. What was your experience/thoughts like with the lucky hoodoo? Whenever I think of this it brings me back to the passage in Liber AL referencing the use of obeah and wanga.
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Post by nyar261 on Oct 8, 2013 15:52:31 GMT
Michael B. explained to me that the apparent simplicity of the Lucky Hoodoo material is deceptive, in that it actually covers territory that will come back around again in different forms later in one's work. The "hoo spirits" and the "doo spirits" have other classifications on other levels. It's well worth doing the work and it serves well as an "outer court" self-initiation into the Grimoire Ghedhe work (although one is probably not obliged to give anonymous blowjobs in public bathrooms - unless of course one likes that sort of thing. Michael did a lot of that stuff partially to test one's discernment, although there are symbolic teachings regarding the nature of vampirism and sexual energy there).
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Post by Ariock on Oct 9, 2013 16:04:29 GMT
Marc - Although the OTOA/LCN no longer has a website, they are still active. Perhaps contacting them will give you some connections to guide you in this work.
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Post by Vadge Moore on Oct 16, 2013 20:13:41 GMT
Marc- I can personally attest to the power of the Lucky Hoodoo ritual itself. What masquerades as a simple way to earn money at the track and other such mundane concerns, can actually truly blow the door off your psychic hinges and send you into an amazing whirlwind of initiation and ordeal. If you can propitiate this ordeal correctly, the knowledge and the power (occult, metaphysical insight, that is)can be truly astounding. The Voudon Gnostic tradition is alive...like a rabid animal is alive. If you're up for that sort of adventure (and I was, and still am)then I suggest performing the rituals. If not, you can still thoroughly enjoy Michael's works and gain a lot from them.
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Post by Marc on Oct 16, 2013 21:27:11 GMT
Thanks Vadge, I have not read any of the material as of yet. I have a copy of the Monastery of the 7 Rays 4 year course and the Voudon Gnostic Workbook. I will start reading through the material in the next few days. I do have some knowledge of other Afro-American Hoodoo and rootwork traditions but not of MB's system. Do you have any recommendations as far as what to begin reading first? I am assuming it would be the Monastery of the 7 Rays material? Also, as far as working the system, is it something one can work on his/her own? ...or is formal initiation absolutely required in OTOA/LCN?
Thanks ...I'm really enjoying your posts and quite a few threads are picking up momentum ...some of the threads that I started because I had no idea where to go to find people who would be familiar with some topics I am interested in. This forum is amazing.
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Post by Vadge Moore on Oct 16, 2013 21:36:04 GMT
Marc- Actually, to begin, I recommend David Beth's Voudon Gnosis. It's limited in scope, covering specific areas- as intended- but it can help you through the mind boggling morass of Bertiaux's work. I simply started with the VGW book back in 1988 when it was first published. It took years to understand it, but the work paid off. Also, as with Grant's work, simply reading the material, allowing it to soak into your subconscious was, for me, the best way to begin resonating to their frequency. Hard to say which to start first. Can't hurt to begin with the M7R's papers and move on to VGW after that...although I did the opposite. If you have access to David's book, that can be of assistance. But again...the osmosis method worked great for me.
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Post by Marc on Oct 16, 2013 22:35:23 GMT
Vadge, I will seek to acquire David Beth's book so that at least I will have all of them. I'm constantly reading 3-4 books at any given time....so I somehow suspect I will probably absorbe more in the same fashion you did. Thanks again!
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Post by Vadge Moore on Oct 16, 2013 22:47:39 GMT
My pleasure.
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Post by uranus on Nov 6, 2013 23:04:19 GMT
What is interesting about Mr. Bertiaux's work is simply reading it can lead one into gnostic power zones if it is read carefully and with consideration. This is especially true of the Monastery of 7 Rays first year course. Read each lesson several times a day in a very careful and grounded manner, absorbing the material. Take notes and pat attention to the world around you. Integrate each day elements of the lessons and take note of changes in perception that occur. They will become deeper and more profound as the years go by.
I am an A.'.A.'. initiate going on 20 years and one of the drawbacks I had noted in the last 4-5 years of that work, really longer but more deeply now, was a sense that I was looking my connection to humanity as a result of my work as I couldn't relate to those around me. I was still able to form connections but the deep differences and seeing how my relations with other people affected me put me into a state of withdrawal that I had to learn a mechanical method of bypassing that led to a great social existence filled with frustration at the mechanical nature of humanity and how similar the masses really are in how they respond to stimuli. I was only really able to form a bond with my girlfriend and her daughter on any deep level that were they to no longer be a part of my life would result in a serious sense of loss and it has been tested twice. With the lessons of the Monastery's first year course I find myself starting to enjoy the simple things in life again, to see with new eyes as I did for years until certain initiations occurred that made it difficult and alien to interact with others in a truly meaningful way. There was a marked inability to relate to their experiences. Now... I feel that sense again. I fully blame Bertiaux!
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Post by Marc on Nov 7, 2013 0:01:23 GMT
Wow, just as I am about to dive into the first year course...thanks a lot for sharing this with us. I have felt the similar alienation from mundane society as you have and I think this is natural for any initiate that takes his/her path seriously. I will keep your post in mind as I read through each lesson.
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Post by Vadge Moore on Nov 7, 2013 2:13:23 GMT
The Left Hand Path, as Bertiaux and Grant describe it, is- of course- averse, perverse, against the grain of standard mores and regular society. As Bertiaux repeats quite often in the Voudon Gnostic Workbook- one must sink deep into the (Freudian) Id in order to tap into the more universal Transcendental Id...that current that permeates the Tree from Malkuth to Kether. This is decidedly in opposition to the (Freudian) Super Ego...the standard mores of society.
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Post by uranus on Nov 7, 2013 22:45:34 GMT
Your welcome, the lessons have been vital to me and a source of inspiration in helping me to overcome the alienation I had been experiencing the further I went. They give back perspective and that's something I think Crowley lost sight of in his evolution as a magician, the human element. The inward JOurney of Thelema, the realization of one's own divinity, the perspective that everything outside of our own awareness is part of our Khu creates a sense of isolation, what the lessons brought to me was that this is not a separation and we are all one even with our uniqueness. So while you are merely a part of my Khu you are also an expression of my Khabs, a part of my own divinity. It's really beautiful.
I am sure many haven't lost sight of that but until 2011 I was pretty isolated with only a few around me aside from a stint in Pittsburgh in 97-98 and having a small working group in the Columbus, Ohio region that lasted about a year. Without someone to relate to it was difficult. Strangely it increased after about a year living in Cleveland after a long LUcifer working where I definitely began to feel like "The Other" and felt the separation increase rapidly. Ah... LUcifer, brilliant angel but as the working went on, I felt the descent into hell quite accutely. When I left Cleveland for Michigan the place in Hell was quite real and now I am learning to balance that out and become the ruler of Hell so to speak and the lessons have been a boon in their Luciferian context at balancing those energies back out.
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Post by voudongnostic16 on Nov 16, 2013 22:44:44 GMT
@ Marc.... I think your new found interest into Voudon Gnosis and Bertiaux is a very wonderful thing for you! For you I would suggest also (if you haven't already) to create your Lucky HooDoo altar as it is mentioned within the very first lesson of the VGW under the "Dedication to the HooDoo Spirits" section. By utilizing this as a daily ritual will strongly connect you with the Spirits of the Current. As you do this, within a short time you may then evolve your practice to include the "Enhanced Lucky HooDoo" Ritual which is contained within David Beth's book 'Voudon Gnosis'. This was how began my my own connections with the VG Current as well as daily meditation research and keeping a magical journal of such experiences. And, of course the MSR papers are fantastic!! I wish you many Voudon Gnostic Blessings Marc!
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Post by Marc on Nov 17, 2013 2:57:17 GMT
Hey Voudongnostic16! Thanks so much for the insight and recommendations! I have yet to receive David Beth's book. I have the MSR courses in pdf and the Voudon Gnostic Workbook. I am reading them simultaneously. Please let me know if you have any other recommendations, insights, advice, and experiences with this current as I am fairly new to the practical side of Bertiaux' work.
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Post by Ariock on Jan 24, 2014 1:53:35 GMT
Fulgur is beginning to mail out notices regarding Michael Bertiaux’s Ontological Graffitti, which will be of interest to those here as Bertiaux writes in it of the period leading up to his contact with Grant. This includes writing of the work he was up to in his orders and the art produced during that time, both of which Grant found fascinating enough to write about and display in many for his next volumes of the Typhonian Trilogies. Grant’s exploration of M.B.’s work started in Cults of the Shadows, which is recently back in print via Starfire, and now contains large colour plates of Bertiaux’s art. Well worth checking out while waiting for OG to launch.
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Post by jcurwen on Jan 24, 2014 23:18:41 GMT
I just finished Cosmic Meditation; an amazing work, and one that seems to condense certain aspects of his teachings concerning the overall purpose and mindstate of the spirit-worlds. I feel that one of the most important things I ever read was his statement from the VGW: "Great care is taken in the construction of the ontic sphere of the priest, so that he will be able to live within the world of the mysteries fully and without any lapse..." Cosmic Meditation is concerned with this "construction;" I would recommend it to anyone just getting into Bertiaux, if they can find it, it doesnt take very long to get through. I want to read the David Beth book at some point, its on my list, and definitely look forward to Ontological Graffiti.
I have an open question: I know that Bertiaux uses technical terminology from Jung (whose ideas I am somewhat familiar with) and also from Hegel and A.N. Whitehead. While I would love to devote a year or so solely to studying the complex works of these great thinkers (an effort that Bertiaux recommends) I do not have time for that; just paging through Phenomenology of Spirit made me realize the enormity of the task. I was wondering if anyone out there can recommend any "condensed" surveys of their ideas. I try to avoid having a lazy "cliff note" mentality but I dont feel its necessary to have full exposure to every aspect of a thought process in order to make use of the final result. However I also want to be able to fully understand Bertiaux's perspective.
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Post by Marc on Feb 14, 2014 2:17:39 GMT
I have a question regarding one of the basic rituals in VGW: The Basic Ritual For Gaining From the Hoodoo Spirits found in the very beginning. Has anyone experienced any form of weakness from performing this ritual, specifically from giving power through the hands (which are powerful gateways to the body's energy grid)? I'm just curious as many systems are in agreement that the palms of the hands are capable of transmitting life-force energy.
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Post by Ariock on Feb 28, 2014 21:55:46 GMT
jcurwen - I will ask Michael for suggestions regarding your question. As an on-topic shameless plug; I have an article in the next issue of Abraxas Journal that should interest anyone on this thread. It presents biographic information concerning Michael’s art, followed by an interview and lots of pictures. In it, Michael discusses the influence of philosophy (and philosophers) on his work.
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Post by Gregory Peters on Mar 2, 2014 0:23:34 GMT
Marc, I wondered something a long similar lines (mentioned it in another thread sometime back). It seemed to me that the person dedicating themselves to the spirits was in some way making themselves too open to their control by becoming their servants, rather than the other way around, or even a more mutual arrangement where both parties help one another out. I understand that it is a mutual arrangement energetically, but the idea of the magician saying I will serve the spirits always set off my internal alarms. Maybe it is just my paranoia or training in western ceremonial that makes me think this way.
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Post by Marc on Mar 2, 2014 1:05:41 GMT
Ariok, much appreciated to see what Michael will have to say on this. I was recently in Chicago and didn't get a chance to meet him.
Gregory, the reason I ask is (in addition to the dedication to serving the spirits) that there are points in the hands which I had mentioned are powerful "chi" gateways and where you can lose chi (points are called lao gong in chinese). I'm glad others have wondered about this as well.
I'm looking forward to hearing what people have to say...
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Post by jcurwen on Mar 3, 2014 0:44:37 GMT
Ariock, thanks I would definitely appreciate that; I will be ordering the new Abraxas soon anyway (primarily because of the article in question). However, Ive already resigned myself to the task of the full texts. They don't seem as difficult as some would make them out to be, they just require more concentration than reading say, Joseph Campbell. Heidegger I might actually skip, but Kant and Whitehead I find fascinating. Hegel will have to wait for now.
As to what Marc and Gregory are discussing, it seems to me that the Western "tone" of the Goetia incantations, condescending and abusive, would cause more negative effects than just being respectful. The medieval traditions may have made these entities into enemies to be feared. The Greek Magical Papyrii had a more respectful attitude. Also, the "serving the spirits" mentality is directly from Haitian religion, and if the Loa are the Laws or principles behind existence, then its not as if one is a slave to some minor spirit but is an active part of the vast spiritual system; its more like an agreement to work in harmony with the cosmos itself. It would be compatible with the Law of Thelema in that if every man and woman is a star in its orbit then the Loa could be seen as the physics and logics defining the orbits and the shapes of the systems, galaxies, etc. Thats my interpretation anyway, but I would also add that I get from the VGW the concept that ones intentions and attitude can affect how the spirits manifest. As to whether they are parasitic, I wouldnt rule out a bad one showing up on occasion, but I remember Bertiaux describes a basic prayer for maintaining the presence of beneficial spirits. I get the impression though that if one feels drained, the energy given to the spirits is being used by them to effect the changes the magician is asking for, so its like a tradeoff (or hopefully, a good investment).
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Post by Marc on Mar 3, 2014 2:22:19 GMT
Hey jcurwen, thanks a bunch for that post, that's very insightful. Could you do me a favor and let me know which basic prayer you are referring to? Is it in the lucky hoodoo section of the VGW or somewhere else? I'm still plowing through but I don't remember seeing something of that type.
While on this topic, contrary to what many people believe, I've been told by a few mambos now that anyone can serve and work with the Loa. For some reason, many folks seem to think that if you are not Haitian or African, then you will have a difficult time working with the spirits. Whether we look at the Dogon material by Temple and others, or the magic of Egypt, or simply the fact that it seems we emerged out of Africa...it's quite clear that the Loa may very well be much much more fundamental to our reality than many "western" occultists would care to acknowledge. Liber AL even makes mention of it: "Also the mantras and the spells; the obeah and the wanga; the work of the wand and the work of the sword; these he shall learn and teach." AL I:37. Even more interesting is the chapter number and number of the verse..1+3+7 = 11. This could be significant. I'm wondering if Crowley ever realized the importance of this one verse. It seems from the material out there that Crowley was perhaps not very familiar with African traditions of magic.
This is an interesting discussion as I have always wondered about the relationship of Thelema and the African traditions.
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Post by Marc on Mar 3, 2014 2:25:04 GMT
...although I am afraid to say that I am just beginning to dig into the Voudon tradition and it is a learning process for me at this point. This is why I love reading insightful posts on this...especially on a Typhonian forum!
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