Bertiaux works and the Typhonian Tradition

[Gregory Peters]

jcurwen, great post thanks. I note in the Hindu and Buddhist tantras, working directly with various classes of entities also entails a mutual exchange in the way of offerings and such. The western grimoire approach is extremely primitive and fear driven when contrasted with the more evolved and cooperative methods of the east

[Marc]

.....which is probably why the southern American hoodoo/conjure practitioners are yielding far greater results when using seals from the Key of Solomon, Black Pullet, Goetia, and other grimoires. They are using the seals and talismans without any of the banishings and invocations found in the grimoires themselves. They will simply draw out the talismans/seals, form a link through prayer and intent and use the seal however they see fit (burning candles on top of it, or anointing it with various oils/powders, etc...). I am in contact with a few hoodoo practitioners from Louisiana and Texas, and from what I know, they are producing very tangible effects..more so than I've ever heard from Goetic or Solomonic magic practitioners. Perhaps the reason for this is their approach (where they aren't almost immediately looking to banish and threaten the spirits right from the start). We have to remember that most of the Grimoires of the Western Esoteric Tradition are very Christian in overtone which means that many of the so-called "demons" they are banishing are merely bastardized versions of spirits who are far older than our western tradition.

I am going to create another thread on the role of Grimoire Magic within Typhonian context. I've always been fascinated with grimoires and have utilized some of the seals myself. Perhaps others on this forum will wish to contribute in this area as well.

[jcurwen]

That would be interesting. It seems that the Goetia spirits could just be manifestations of what the Vuodon systems call Hoodoo spirits from the land of the Dead, the Underworld, so if the southern Voudon practitioners are getting better results its probably because they have already formed a link with them, in a more respectful fashion. The Graeco-Roman Cthonian spirits are another manifestation...not every culture and system parallels each other directly but the places where overlaps occur is where the deepest archetypal mindstates are found. This was an area of focus for the Golden Dawn, which Crowley and KG took further, organizing the worlds spiritual phenomena as categories on the Tree of Life (the success of which is a matter of opinion). Also, Marc, the pages 19-21 of the VGW deal with the maintaining of a positive state. Standard banishing work is also probably fine, placing the focus on eliminating negative emotional states and distractions.

Gregory, your right, the Eastern systems definitely have a good perspective on what you were saying, in that even Asuras should be respected as the relationship between the Asuras, Devas and Gods is dynamic with each class of being evolving in cycles, and all capable of good and evil, not the permanent good spirit / evil spirit dichotomy of Christianity. "Asuras are powerful Yogis capable of great austerities" is a line I remember from one book, which could be compared with the Hoodoo being powerful underwater magician spirits.

[N0T 2]

Mar 7, 2014 20:27:03 GMT jcurwen said:

It seems that the Goetia spirits could just be manifestations of what the Vuodon systems call Hoodoo spirits from the land of the Dead, the Underworld, so if the southern Voudon practitioners are getting better results its probably because they have already formed a link with them, in a more respectful fashion. The Graeco-Roman Cthonian spirits are another manifestation...not every culture and system parallels each other directly but the places where overlaps occur is where the deepest archetypal mindstates are found.

Goetia spirits do in fact appear to be Graeco-Roman deities at one point, and the traditions of Goetia are indeed are much older and grander than people like Crowley and Mathers were  aware, according to Jake Stratton-Kent's excellent scholarship in his Encyclopedia Goetica series from Scarlet Imprint.

Goetia appears to be the single most important, and indeed the only continuously applied stream of Western Occultism linking it to antiquity.

Not sure I go along with the idea of spirits (goetic or otherwise) being "mindstates" of the individual (any more than any other individual is), whatever Crowley said. A mindstate may accompany some aspect of a spirit's presence, as it does with any other individual, but that to me is an emanation of the spirit, rather than the spirit being an emanation or part of my mindstate (in any way apart from the sense in which the entire cosmos is). Just because your mind may help with the introduction doesn't necessarily mean it made the thing entering (or discovered by) it.

Interesting that Crowley was ok calling Goetic spirits "emanations of the mind" but he insisted on Aiwass as an entirely foreign category of individual who used him like a gramophone player. To me this suggests either a change of viewpoint, or a "soft" attitude to ontology, which changed depending on the readers he was trying to attract or the point he was trying to make, or the book/subscription he was trying to sell. It is vital to always keep in mind that even at his most rational and technical, Crowley was above all a poet. AC saying spirits are parts of the mind tied magick to the then-fashionable theories of Freud and later Jung whilst relieving the willpower-fuelled Victorian rationalist reader of having to "believe" in anything at all beyond his own mind (and therefore ego). This would be very attractive if you were raised in an insane religious household where belief in non-existent absurdities was enforced and rational thought was a diabolical crime. Going the extra step and turning diabolism into rational thought was poetic genius on Crowley's part, but not much more (or less!). Poetry being, of course, the direct apprehension and transmission of reality (rather than its explanation).

On another but perhaps more relevant note, Bertiaux's Cosmic Meditation is a wonderfully spiritous read.

[jcurwen]

I just want to contribute one point (as this line of thought can be expanded into infinite arguments and is the subject of vast volumes spanning centuries), that Crowley seems to have a different opinion by the time he was writing the letters of Magick Without Tears, from when he wrote that Goetia intro "Initiated Interpretation of Ceremonial Magick." He states in the letter "The Holy Guardian Angel, An Objective Individual" that: "I propose to use the word 'angel' to include all sorts of disembodied beings, from demons to gods - in all cases, that they are objective..." However he then differentiates between Gods as Macrocosmic and Angels as microcosmic in another letter ("Do Angels ever cut themselves shaving?") The point is that he seems to have abandoned the purely subjective psychological standpoint from his G.D. days, and sees all legitimate invocations to be a contact with external entities, with qualifications though, for at one point he says "The God Jupiter I invoke will not be the same Jupiter that you invoke." That doesnt necessarily mean that Jupiter is entirely subjective, it just means that 2 different individuals will have different encounters with Jupiter. Again, this is what (in the West) Descartes, Hume, Kant (these are on the AA syllabus I believe) and many others have been debating for 2 centuries, so it becomes a matter of any given individual deciding for themselves what aspects of experience is "I" and what is "Not-I".

[Marc]

I will add that regardless of whether the entities in question are subjective or objective...if you treat them as objective and real beings independent of yourself...you will have much more success in operations. This is my own personal experience of course. If you are working with an entity and you already view it as a portion of your greater mind, you are imposing limits. Whenever I work with a being ..I am always in the mindset that this is an independent being outside of myself..and I have found contact to be much more potent this way.

Any thoughts?

[PW PV 113]

JCurwen, Just briefly, because if I can I’ll write more generally on other part of this thread later.

Jung is essential to contemporary occultism because his ideas spread widely through the 80’s which is when a lot of the people who are influential now were doing their learning. It’s his understanding of the archetypes and the stratification of consciousness which sheds such light on Tarot, Qabalah and dream symbolism. Hegel and Whitehead less so.

But for my money the philosopher whose content is closest to Thelema (though unrelated to Bertiaux) is Friedrich Nietzsche – Ecce Homo is a condensation, Thus Spake Zarathustra his crowning glory, The Will to Power possibly the most Thelemic; Twilight of the Idols; The Anti-Christ, The Genealogy of Morals – all absolutely brilliant thought and executed. Just remember he was Professor of Philology at Basle at 25 and went fully mad from syphilis by the end. He was specific about writing for 100+ years into the future, said he wanted to philosophize with a sledgehammer, described his books as dynamite, and wanted to say in one book what others could not say in ten.

He appeared to me once, in Edinburgh, 1988. It was after I had a meeting with the University that day and decided I wouldn’t go on with a PhD in Linguistics. It was late at night, all that appeared was one leg, it looked like he would have been in a military uniform, he would have been standing one leg in front of the other – what struck me was the crease on that trouser, man it was straight, it was absolutely sharp, the crease at the back.

[N0T 2]

Mar 9, 2014 1:17:43 GMT Marc said:

I will add that regardless of whether the entities in question are subjective or objective...if you treat them as objective and real beings independent of yourself...you will have much more success in operations. This is my own personal experience of course. If you are working with an entity and you already view it as a portion of your greater mind, you are imposing limits. Whenever I work with a being ..I am always in the mindset that this is an independent being outside of myself..and I have found contact to be much more potent this way.

Any thoughts?

It could be that Crowley was simply more, unwittingly, competent when he made contact with Aiwass than he was with other spirits. And worse beforehand.

Perhaps if he was actually good at evocation when he tried the others, he'd have said the same stuff about them as he did about Aiwass, instead of going all "it's your mind" on them.   It could just be that Aleister Crowley sucked at evocation, at least when he formulated those theories about it.

He went to Cairo and it worked out - although it didn't: Aiwass picked him, he'd never heard the name before the annunciation myth was written. Being a poet, invocation came naturally, so he invoked Horus. Then, a Tangential Tantrum of Aeonic proportions happened, Aiwass appears and bingo, Thelema. I don't know if this counts as evocation or simply "contact", as spirits summoning themselves to visible appearance without your prior knowledge of their existence is not really "evocation", is it. Even if an invoked Horus tells you to expect it a bit earlier..., and perhaps that is an essential point which he and Grant emphasise, but not in as many words.

Contact from Outside - who summons whom?

And, if the spirits only do certain hours "when the stars are right", can any of us say it is us?

Could Crowley have had equally epic contact with a Goetic spirit as he says he had with Aiwass if he'd been equally good at Goetic evocation when he was doing it? Perhaps we need a profound cosmic doctrine equal to Thelema in depth and scope from a variety of beings, then maybe we'd get something more complete and nuanced than we have.

Hey, that's what Crowley said too.

Let me get back to my temple...

[Ad Finem]

With regard to this topic and tangential tantrums, I would like to relate an experience I had about a year ago in Germany. I was staying at the home of a friend who had a great passion for collecting owls in many forms - wood, glass etc. Readers of KG will of course be aware of the Typhonian significance of this creature, however the woman had no knowledge or interest in occult matters. During my stay I began reading KG's "Ninth Arch". Very close to the house where I was staying was a tower, which I instinctively "felt" acted as some kind of gateway to outside. With a little research online I found out this used to be a water tower but was now abandoned. The tower was very close to lake which I discovered was called the "Blue Lake". One night I went to bed and woke up in the small hours of the night and noticed what seemed to be a "grey / dwarf like" entity on the bedroom floor. I was certainly not dreaming, however I would say that I was in a state that was somewhere between waking and dreaming. This experience only lasted for a few seconds but I felt strongly that the place where I was staying had some connection with those outside. On a subsequent visit I found a tiny beetle drawing on my leg but the person who had live in the property for very many years had never seen such a creature. I believe that they call us, not the other way round, BUT the right circumstances have to be in place however I also believe that it is possible to set theses circumstances either consciously, or unconsciously.

Alchemi

[VoudonEmissary]

Marc,

As a member of OTOA-LCN, I wanted to let you know the Orders are very much alive and working to both mentor new students and invigorate the eregore first brought to the attention of the world by Michael. Many of the suggestions given here are valid. The Lucky Hoodoo works are deceptively simple but will establish a direct link into the heart of the Gnostic mysteries in the Voudon lands of Vilokamps.

In the fine tradition of Ariock's shameless plug, I shall be presenting an evening of Visionary Voudon Art in the UK in April where I will be duscussing some of the themes of this tradition and their expression in artworks as magical machines and portals through the Meon into Zothyrian and N-Lands such as the Plateau of Leng.

More details are available at www.seanwoodward.com/loa/appearing-at-visionary-voudun-19-4-2014/

[Marc]

Thanks VoudonEmissary,

If a person wished to affiliate or apply for membership within OTOA-LCN, how would one go about it? I was thinking that contacting David Beth directly would be an option but you would know better than I.

[Ariock]

Marc - You may send inquiries to the Sovereign Grand Master of the OTOA/LCN at [e-mail]. David Beth has moved on from these orders, however he is at the helm of of La Société Voudon Gnostique, which you may explore at www.voudongnosis.org.

[Marc]

Excellent, thank you Ariock for the above.

[stasis]

This is a wonderful thread with lots of great info for anyone interested in Bertiaux's work from what I can tell. It started when I was lurking and I referred to it several times while doing my own beginning work. thanks everyone who's contributed to it for shedding some light for me!

[Ariock]

jcurwen - Sorry so slow getting back on this. MB says it is unimportant to get his perspective, which came from an origin of university studies on philosophy prior to his immersion into the occult, and that it is not necessarily important to fully grasp the ideas of those thinkers named in the VGW. The point, as with many things in the Workbook, was to show various methods and discuss how he came about his ideas based on his learning and passions. In creating your own magical universe, you would need the ideas which resonate well with you and go with them. The various exercises you go through in developing along the VG path allow the mind to start to absorb information, ideas and understandings on an almost un/subconscious level. He said something to the effect of, "If Jung doesn't "work" for you throw it out for now. Try other things that "speak" to you more, then circle back around to it in 5-10 years".

[gilesvint]

For Marc and anyone else who might find this useful. Two books that I didn't notice mentioned in the above discussion.

First, Michael Bertiaux's 2010 book, Vudu Cartography. Now out of print, published by Fulgur as was Cosmic Meditation. Have a look around for a copy: fulgur.co.uk/vudu-cartography-now-out-of-print/

Second, Tau Palamas's 2013 book, Syzygy: Reflections on the Monastery of the Seven Rays. Still in print from Hadean Press. Very good, lots in it, plus the second part is full of practical material: www.hadeanpress.com/2013/10/syzygy-reflections-on-the-monastery-of-the-seven-rays/

Hope this is useful. I'm just starting out with all this material myself as once again I hear the call to pursue it. Good discussion above.

All the best,

Giles.

[Gregory Peters]

Agreed on Vudo Cartography, really wonderful book. Every time I open that one I feel like I am being strangely pulled into a wormhole to alternate realities!

[redman]

Has anyone here had first hand experience working with the Lucky Hoodoo Grimoire in the VGW? With the dedication ritual (and perhaps also the version from David Beth's Voudon Gnosis? I would love to hear feedback. Any positive or negative experiences?

[gilesvint]

I'm working with the Lucky Hoodoo material now. I need to do more with it than I have, but have repeated the bits that I have done several times based on Jason Carpenter's recommendations. I'd suggest that more happens the more of it you use, and the more often you use it. This could be said about many systems. I can't comment on all it can lead to yet, but I can say things do happen. Remember to use the related illustrations at the end of the 2nd edition of the VGW. Some improvisation may also help while using your intuition.

Have a look here for more info that you might not have come across, starting at the earliest essays working up to the present. He is working on an ebook guide to this material which he hopes to publish soon:

masteringluckyhoodoo.blogspot.co.uk/

Also, Sean Woodward is presently about to release a book called Keys to the Hoodoo Kingdom which might also be helpful.

[redman]

Feb 13, 2018 11:02:24 GMT gilesvint said:

I'm working with the Lucky Hoodoo material now. I need to do more with it than I have, but have repeated the bits that I have done several times based on Jason Carpenter's recommendations. I'd suggest that more happens the more of it you use, and the more often you use it. This could be said about many systems. I can't comment on all it can lead to yet, but I can say things do happen. Remember to use the related illustrations at the end of the 2nd edition of the VGW. Some improvisation may also help while using your intuition.

Have a look here for more info that you might not have come across, starting at the earliest essays working up to the present. He is working on an ebook guide to this material which he hopes to publish soon:

masteringluckyhoodoo.blogspot.co.uk/

Also, Sean Woodward is presently about to release a book called Keys to the Hoodoo Kingdom which might also be helpful.

Hey Gilesvint..

Thanks for sharing..I've actually just finished reading all of Jason Carpenter's posts which I thought were awesome. Ive also read Kyle Fite's posts as well on his blog. I guess the things I really was wondering in all of this is that it seems that you are pledging to obey the spirits and serve them forever (maybe just my western GD background surfacing here but that made me a bit uneasy..which is nicely addressed by Carpenter in his posts). It seems to be more of a mutual relationship rsther than your being the spirits' servant in any way.

Also, I wondered since the Hoo and Doo spirits are two classes of spirits..have they ever manifested as individual spirits from either of those groups and you would work solely with the one spirit for a time? Or always with the entire group of Hoodoo spirits in general?

I will definitely look out for Sean Woodward's book..any idea who is publishing it?

So Gilesvint..when you say things do happen..are you alluding to negative or positive things? Changes in your outlook on things? Forgive my ignorance, my only work so dsr has been along GD and Thelemic orders so I am a bit limited and I feel working with the Lucky Hoodoo seems to me much closer to primal forces in the world. . . Which is what draws me tk it..

[The Double-wanded One]

I haven't read or purchased the famed Voudon Gnostic Workbook but I am incredibly interested in Bertiaux, do you think the book is worth it's expensive price?

Also, is the Monastery Of The Seven Rays 4 year course a literal course you sign up for or is it more literature (in the way of the V.G.W.)?

[N0T 2]

Jun 10, 2018 1:01:51 GMT The Double-wanded One said:

I haven't read or purchased the famed Voudon Gnostic Workbook but I am incredibly interested in Bertiaux, do you think the book is worth it's expensive price?

Also, is the Monastery Of The Seven Rays 4 year course a literal course you sign up for or is it more literature (in the way of the V.G.W.)?

That book was republished by Red Wheel Weiser a while back and retailed for about forty bucks. You shouldn't pay more than that for it. There are pdf's of the first edition which, due to the flimsy binding, I feel no guilt suggesting you find and preview before handing over plastic or metal tokens which might otherwise be better spent on books by Kenneth Grant, which are, without exception, of high quality in every respect. The content is hilarious.

[Ariock]

The paperback edition of the VGW is $27.03 new on Amazon and $21.69 used. There is also a $9.99 Kindle version.

[The Double-wanded One]

Jun 27, 2018 1:21:19 GMT Ariock said:

The paperback edition of the VGW is $27.03 new on Amazon and $21.69 used. There is also a $9.99 Kindle version.

It keeps popping up elsewhere, so I'm thinking of getting it later this week. 
Does Bertiaux talk much about Liber Legis in VGW/Ontological Graffiti? (I know he has a thing around Aiwass)

I understand he's a Thelemite (with the mysterious OTOA and other things) and a Gnostic with emphasis on Voudon in his Current but it's still hard to get a proper picture, even with Grant's coverage of Bertaiaux in books like Hecates Fountain........

[The Double-wanded One]

Well Bertiaux is unique, that's for sure 

I think (as a Thelemite) I find it easier to appreciate his work with the Choronzon Club more but the Voudon Gnostic Workbook is quite "out there" (in a good way).
In occultism, we need more people like him and Kenneth Grant (both respectively with their own systems) rather than this politicising and pseudo-academic, pseudo-Jungian stuff you find published every year from mainstream "Thelemic" persons - Michael Bertiaux is very refreshing to read in comparison