Value of Initiation

[william]

Is anyone able to say if KG carried out any "traditional" initiations within the New Isis Lodge/ Typhonian Order or (T).O.T.O.? I'm aware that he thought that the Crowleyan OTO initiation rituals (the ones published by King) were out of date and no longer relevant, but did he therefore discount the system and practice altogether or did he maybe adapt such initiation rituals accordingly but still carried them out, albeit in a different form - after all, I believe he did still maintain the actual degree structure of the Order in place and regarded that of significance?

In other words, I'm interested to know if he still believed in the efficacy of "hands on" direct person-to-person transmission of an initiatory "current" within the New Isis Lodge or OTO itself, and whether such initiations were (are still?) viewed to be valuable enough to be carried out in their lineal successor the Typhonian Order? (I am of course aware that the only real initiations which count are those where one is self-initiated, i.e. has alredy done the magickal "work" of advancement on oneself - I am asking here more after the general principle of the thing.)

[Michael Staley]

There exists a body of Initiation rituals for New Isis Lodge. There's no indication as to whether these were used at an early stage, or throughout the whole lifetime of the Lodge. I was a member of the Typhonian O.T.O. from early 1976 onwards, and there were no formal initiation rituals experienced by me within that time. At present there are no rituals of initiation within the Typhonian Order, but that doesn't preclude their use at some time in the future should it be appropriate.

As to whether Kenneth Grant believed in the efficacy of a physical "hands-on" transmitted current of initiation, I never experienced this from him. On the other hand, there was a transmission through consciousness.

[william]

May 9, 2016 22:17:55 GMT Michael Staley said:

There exists a body of Initiation rituals for New Isis Lodge. There's no indication as to whether these were used at an early stage, or throughout the whole lifetime of the Lodge. I was a member of the Typhonian O.T.O. from early 1976 onwards, and there were no formal initiation rituals experienced by me within that time. At present there are no rituals of initiation within the Typhonian Order, but that doesn't preclude their use at some time in the future should it be appropriate.

As to whether Kenneth Grant believed in the efficacy of a physical "hands-on" transmitted current of initiation, I never experienced this from him. On the other hand, there was a transmission through consciousness.

Thank you for your informative reply there, Michael.

I can recall reading in Khab (which at the time - the late 70's and early 80's - was described as "The Official Organ of the OTO"), articles which were contributed by members who then gave their magical name and number, followed by a degree (such as IIº or Vº) within the overall Order grade structure. However if the Typhonian O.T.O. were not involved with actual physical initiations, as you state, how then was/is it possible for people to progress within that structure?  And would members therefore have been within every grade there at some time, from Iº to IXº? (I can also recall reading KG issuing a charter for an Xº).

Would the initiation rituals which you mentioned were intended for use by New Isis Lodge have ever been publicised anywhere? I am sure they would be fascinating reading if they are no longer regarded as restricted or confidential documentary material, and especially more so if they had actually been set down (no pun intended!) by Kenneth Grant himself and therefore adequately indicated and reflected his (transplutonic) conception or world-view at the point of their composition.

[Michael Staley]

I can recall reading in Khabs (which at the time - the late 70's and early 80's - was described as "The Official Organ of the OTO"), articles which were contributed by members who then gave their magical name and number, followed by a degree (such as IIº or Vº) within the overall Order grade structure. However if the Typhonian O.T.O. were not involved with actual physical initiations, as you state, how then was/is it possible for people to progress within that structure?  And would members therefore have been within every grade there at some time, from Iº to IXº? (I can also recall reading KG issuing a charter for an Xº).

A degree system is usually an incremental framework for undertaking a body of work, whether formal rituals of initiation are involved or not. Thus it might be, for instance, that the work of the IIIº is to create and then to implement an operation in bhakti or devotional yoga, a good example of which is set out in Crowley's Liber Astarte. It is from the magical and mystical work itself that initiation or insight is distilled. Upon completion of the Work, the initiate moves on to the Work of the next degree. In this way you can have a body of work which when undertaken bestows initiation, but without any formal rituals of initiation along the way.

Would the initiation rituals which you mentioned were intended for use by New Isis Lodge have ever been publicised anywhere? I am sure they would be fascinating reading if they are no longer regarded as restricted or confidential documentary material, and especially more so if they had actually been set down (no pun intended!) by Kenneth Grant himself and therefore adequately indicated and reflected his (transplutonic) conception or world-view at the point of their composition.

I haven't come across mention of them anywhere in Kenneth's published work. I do recall Kenneth telling me, though, that his original conception for Hecate's Fountainwas to include rituals; whether or not these were the rituals he hed in mind, I don't know. However, he decided to go off in a different direction, resulting in the book we have now. As to publication of these rituals, they may well have a part to play in the development of Ordo Typhonis, so will remain unpublished, at least for the time being.

[william]

May 11, 2016 11:52:07 GMT Michael Staley said:

I can recall reading in Khabs (which at the time - the late 70's and early 80's - was described as "The Official Organ of the OTO"), articles which were contributed by members who then gave their magical name and number, followed by a degree (such as IIº or Vº) within the overall Order grade structure. However if the Typhonian O.T.O. were not involved with actual physical initiations, as you state, how then was/is it possible for people to progress within that structure?  And would members therefore have been within every grade there at some time, from Iº to IXº? (I can also recall reading KG issuing a charter for an Xº).

A degree system is usually an incremental framework for undertaking a body of work, whether formal rituals of initiation are involved or not. Thus it might be, for instance, that the work of the IIIº is to create and then to implement an operation in bhakti or devotional yoga, a good example of which is set out in Crowley's Liber Astarte. It is from the magical and mystical work itself that initiation or insight is distilled. Upon completion of the Work, the initiate moves on to the Work of the next degree. In this way you can have a body of work which when undertaken bestows initiation, but without any formal rituals of initiation along the way.

Again thanks for the information, which I'm sure others will find useful.  And for thoughtfully adding the 's' to Khabs which had somehow disappeared.  I take it that the body of work described was such as would have been undertaken within the Typhonian O.T.O. itself, although clearly not the Crowleyan or Reussian (or Caliphate) recensions of the Order.