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Post by Ad Finem on Apr 21, 2016 16:10:42 GMT
Have you considered changing your user name from Ad Finem to Obscurum Per Obscurius? Your last post now begs the question: what does that Dali painting have to do with any of this? In answer to your question. No I haven't. A.F
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Post by Gregory Peters on Apr 21, 2016 23:28:45 GMT
I watched the video yesterday trying to find a connection, but perhaps I am just not in a receptive frame of mind. Then I thought perhaps Ad Finem meant the lyrics of the song. Perhaps a sort of 80's take on Olympus and Marsyas ala Crowley's poem Aha!
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Post by BSh on Apr 22, 2016 0:04:04 GMT
It was only in recent years when I heard the song that I noticed the connection. The video expounds what Crowley refers to as, "the marriage of the path", and I would strongly urge those interested in this aspect to read KG's "Remembering Aleister Crowley" where this particular formula is referenced. A < F Yes, but what is the connection - and what is the particular formula which is referenced (quote from text or page ref would be useful)? Ditto with the Dali picture in 9th Arch --- Or is all of this merry dance?
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Post by Ad Finem on Apr 22, 2016 8:19:51 GMT
"A merry dance"? Or perhaps web of deception weaved by the universal spider (Brahman)?
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Post by BSh on Apr 25, 2016 0:17:23 GMT
"Everyone Wants to Rule the World" by Tears for Fears. We can't let you get away with this one by just mentioning the title. I know I am eager to hear how you are interpreting this particular video in Typhonian terms and/or as revealing the higher degrees of the OTO as you mentioned above. As if there is usually not enough Mystery Mongering around, already. This is very good query Nalyd, but Ad Finem has still not answered but prevaricated us. But what do you propose could be done, in terms of Ad Finem just "getting away with it"? Clearly and simple, he has got away with it, so far! Ad Finem, no further teasing, if you please: kindly answer the various points mentioned, if you so would, including the Remembering Aleister Crowley reference you gave and maybe together the Dali/9th Arch one. If it were not for the high standard of your previous postings I would suspect this to be prime example of trollery. Enough with the web of deception (whether weaved by the universal spider or not)! Lets simplify as are there not becoming too many cobwebby strands off of this thread already?
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Post by Nalyd Khezr Bey on Apr 25, 2016 4:34:27 GMT
Yeah, I kind of gave up pushing it. I dig Ad Finem's other posts as well but here s/he is not shining so much. I am also not sure that approaching Tears for Fears songs/videos in the Crowleyesque Qabalistic-interpretation-of-nursury-rhymes style is really necessary for anything. We could just say that everything reflects a Typhonian influence but it serves no real purpose to do so. It would be more of an example of "what the thinker thinks, the prover proves".
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Post by Ad Finem on Apr 25, 2016 10:16:53 GMT
Yeah, I kind of gave up pushing it. I dig Ad Finem's other posts as well but here s/he is not shining so much. I am also not sure that approaching Tears for Fears songs/videos in the Crowleyesque Qabalistic-interpretation-of-nursury-rhymes style is really necessary for anything. We could just say that everything reflects a Typhonian influence but it serves no real purpose to do so. It would be more of an example of "what the thinker thinks, the prover proves". You actually bring up an interesting point here Nalyd Khezr Bey and it is a question of how we divide things up into categories. Kaula philosophy represent a unifying connectedness, beneath the various objects, processes and living entities of this world and perhaps this best describes my viewpoint here. It's about things that are connected that should not be connected, or that we do not expect to be connected. Hence the importance of OKBISh and the web which it weaves. I assume you are referring to those nursery rhymes that appear in A.C's Magick? But what about fairy tales in particular "Cinderella"? Do you not see anything Typohnian in that story or in "Beauty and the Beast"? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the two novels ("The Beetle" and "Dope") which are major influences in "The Ninth Arch", which in my opinion is KG's greatest work. Are they just interesting novels of their time or something more? When I was in Convent School at a very early age we were read and later, encouraged to read, "The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe", since this book was consider to have an important "Christian message". Much, much later in my life I realised that it actually had a Typhonian one. Both interpretations are valid and I am glad that I was given the book to read as a child. I am amazed at the number of expensive limited edition, so called "grimoires", or Magical texts which are supposed to contain secrets, Typhonian or otherwise, which are on offer these days, but which are really nothing more that lavishly produced drivel and it is regrettable that people, much as elsewhere in life, are seduced into buying these borbles. My point it that it is often in the least expected places where one can discover a real source of knowledge. This is what makes Grant's writings so unique and so inspiring, he draws ones attention to all manner of things though art, literature, mythology, religion, qabalah, film, geography, and even words themselves, yet further, reveals these manifestations as nothing more than tools to be used to tunnel into a World most of us are not normally aware of. Perhaps one way to express this process would be as the unquantifiable déjà vu of knowledge, which manifests in any form. I am indebted to one member on this board, "NOT 2" who drew my attention to something KG noted. This member quotes in his signature the following: " Prefatory Note: (or for inclusion in "Intro." Cults). My aim is not so much to impart information as to create in the reader a receptivity to influences that cannot be verbally explained. " - K. Grant, notebook. A.F
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Post by Nalyd Khezr Bey on Apr 25, 2016 13:26:13 GMT
There it is. Brilliantly stated! ...and I don't even need to read it.
EDIT: I did read it though. Thank you Ad Finem for bringing my morning into focus. Now I have to spend the rest of my life undoing the trauma of this one infinite moment.
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Post by BSh on Apr 25, 2016 18:27:33 GMT
One perhaps interesting point here is that on a more "tangential level", there have been Typhonian intrusions into what are seemingly run of the mill films, music videos and so on. There is one such intrusion in a popular film released only this year and in a hit music song / video released in the '80s reaching number 2 in the UK charts which openly reveals the higher degrees of the OTO. Of course the makers or directors of these films remain totally unaware of this influence. Kenneth Grant, although remaining silent on one particular film from the 1940's did note a number of earlier films including Nosferatu which is perhaps one of the best older examples of Typhonian influence in film. A.F Not too surprising, considering the Typhonian Tradition is a living current that weaves its way throughout all of reality with its snakelike movements! What is the film and hit music song you are referring to ? The title of the film escapes me at the moment, but the music video was, "Everyone Wants to Rule the World" by Tears for Fears.Ad Finem, has the title of this film reappeared in your consciousness yet - Might it have been The Witches? Also, you did not mention the title of the one particular silent film from the 1940's not noted by Mr Grant?
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Post by Gregory Peters on Apr 25, 2016 20:19:20 GMT
I am amazed at the number of expensive limited edition, so called "grimoires", or Magical texts which are supposed to contain secrets, Typhonian or otherwise, which are on offer these days, but which are really nothing more that lavishly produced drivel and it is regrettable that people, much as elsewhere in life, are seduced into buying these borbles. My point it that it is often in the least expected places where one can discover a real source of knowledge. This is what makes Grant's writings so unique and so inspiring, he draws ones attention to all manner of things though art, literature, mythology, religion, qabalah, film, geography, and even words themselves, yet further, reveals these manifestations as nothing more than tools to be used to tunnel into a World most of us are not normally aware of. Perhaps one way to express this process would be as the unquantifiable déjà vu of knowledge, which manifests in any form. I am indebted to one member on this board, "NOT 2" who drew my attention to something KG noted. This member quotes in his signature the following: " Prefatory Note: (or for inclusion in "Intro." Cults). My aim is not so much to impart information as to create in the reader a receptivity to influences that cannot be verbally explained. " - K. Grant, notebook. A.F Well done indeed, that brought it all home so far as I am concerned! On a tangenital note, I find it interesting to see how western science continues to slowly realize it is caught in its own observational devices... Great article here for some food for thought: www.quantamagazine.org/20160421-the-evolutionary-argument-against-reality/
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Post by parsifal on Apr 25, 2016 22:44:16 GMT
I just finished reading through this thread to the end and I am struck by how well read, insightful, and civil these posts are. As someone who is new to this forum (as of this Friday), I find this incredibly inspiring. Unfortunately, there seems to be so much sniping at each other on many occult forums out there. Here, what's more evident seems to be a mutual desire to share ideas and suggest alternative ways of thinking about things that perhaps hadn't occurred to one.
I'm reminded of a passage in James Wasserman's memoir of the New York occult scene, In the Center of the Fire, in which he describes first meeting Kenneth Grant. Weiser had asked Wasserman to design and produce Hecate's Fountain, and the OTO leadership at the time were outraged that Wasserman would deign to work with Grant. They said he was the "enemy," I suppose because of trademark disputes over who had the right to lay claim to the OTO brand. Anyway, Wasserman describes meeting Grant for the first time and finding him exceedingly polite, professional, and cordial, hardly the "enemy" he was led to expect.
In a way, Grant's persona--and the sharing of ideas and encouragement so evident in this forum--embody something I read about the Typhonian tradition elsewhere on this forum, which is the idea that the outward glamour of the "enemy," the "evil," the darkness" that surrounds the Order is really just an outward screen or deception to turn (or scare) the profane away from the Holy Gnosis that lies hidden within.
Just some thoughts here.
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Post by BSh on Apr 26, 2016 13:07:11 GMT
Ad Finem, yes your reply may all well be brilliantly stated and focused and brought it all home for Gregor Peters and Nalyd Khezr Bey, but I would like to be able to say that as well (as far as Im concerned) that there's no more to be said either, please can you help me to do so?
I agree also your technique appears to be not so much to impart information but create in the reader receptivity to influences which cannnot easily be verbally exprssed. I cannot detect and do not know about tangenital explanations about Kaula philosophy and 'unquantifiable deja vu of knowledge' re the film/video, however this is an exchange in a forum, not one of Mr Grant's splendid books.
But I do not claim to be genuine adept and am nowhere near your (all three) levels of magical experience; unlike you I am a mere beginner and cannot understand all the subtle nuances in remarks about your answers verging on the masterly (as I understand it), Ad Finem? I am neither expert Thelemite nor Typhonian but just am enjoying studying through Mr Grant's books all the same. Plus I know I am stupid sometimes and my English is not as good as I like, but I am only a simple enquirer who just wanted a clear answer to questions to help me (and possibly others) on the Typhonian "path" of a similar persuasion to enable us to try to make our own way forwards and down it is all we may hope for?
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Post by Gregory Peters on Apr 26, 2016 23:25:19 GMT
BSh, I suspect you will get much more out of just continuing to read Kenneth Grant's material, rather than trying to mine some insight from 80's videos and such. Not trying to be vague or difficult, just re-directing focus. The revelations that Ad Finem had are his own, in the same way that I might find incredible Typhonian insight while reading Alan Watts, or performing Kali puja... My experience does not necessarily translate over to any one else.
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Post by ShB on Apr 27, 2016 0:12:00 GMT
"the video does depict black brothers dancing in front of white and red fuel pumps either side of an amber bucket followed by a baby husky"
read Read READ: The Magical Revival - Ch. 7 Star Fire Nightside of Eden - Part II Ch.7 Zamradiel
"none so blind as those who will not see"
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Post by BSh on Apr 27, 2016 1:37:55 GMT
BSh, I suspect you will get much more out of just continuing to read Kenneth Grant's material, rather than trying to mine some insight from 80's videos and such. Not trying to be vague or difficult, just re-directing focus. Of course, Gregory, I did not think that for an instance. You are clear, I feel, but it was not from the 80's videos as much but from the comments of Ad Finem. From which I was trying to find a meaning (or as you say, "mine some insight") relating to the works which he particularly exampled, e.g., to the Dali painting, "lugubrious games", the film not marked out by Mr Grant, etc. And yet I have the feeling that the only meaning I may find I might miss is the punchline of some obscure metaphysical joke! (Probably my wrong perception here though, no doubt) "The revelations that Ad Finem had are his own, in the same way that I might find incredible Typhonian insight while reading Alan Watts, or performing Kali puja... My experience does not necessarily translate over to any one else."But why (not) though Gregory and whither, in that case, the perception of "star-sponge vision", cosmic consciousness and "the consciousness of the continuity of existence"- since every man and every woman is a star though s/he isn't an "island universe", surely?
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Post by Ad Finem on Apr 27, 2016 8:51:46 GMT
BSh, I suspect you will get much more out of just continuing to read Kenneth Grant's material, rather than trying to mine some insight from 80's videos and such. Not trying to be vague or difficult, just re-directing focus. Of course, Gregory, I did not think that for an instance. You are clear, I feel, but it was not from the 80's videos as much but from the comments of Ad Finem. From which I was trying to find a meaning (or as you say, "mine some insight") relating to the works which he particularly exampled, e.g., to the Dali painting, "lugubrious games", the film not marked out by Mr Grant, etc. And yet I have the feeling that the only meaning I may find I might miss is the punchline of some obscure metaphysical joke! (Probably my wrong perception here though, no doubt) "The revelations that Ad Finem had are his own, in the same way that I might find incredible Typhonian insight while reading Alan Watts, or performing Kali puja... My experience does not necessarily translate over to any one else."But why (not) though Gregory and whither, in that case, the perception of "star-sponge vision", cosmic consciousness and "the consciousness of the continuity of existence"- since every man and every woman is a star though s/he isn't an "island universe", surely? The problem is how we perceive things BSh, or perhaps more precisely how we are conditioned to perceive things and this problem applies to all of us. Perceiving things differently can be a blessing or a curse. Being an "outsider" in this respect may force one into areas of life which may or may not prove beneficial. Crowley, Dali, Gauguin, Austin Spare, Kenneth Grant, Clanda Fayne, are good examples of this. Maybe it's genetics, maybe something else and the " only difference between a madman, and myself is that I'm not mad", as Dali once proclaimed. When you watch the scene in the video that ShB notes, do you see the two men dressed in black, dancing for joy, or in LAMentation? In some cultures dancing and merriment at the funeral of the deceased is traditional practice. Does this then connect with "The Lugubrious Game"? But if I am correct in my assumptions, then how does this connect with the lyrics of the song which begin on such an upbeat line, "Welcome to your life, there's no turning back"? Turning back to what? If you are given the question "What is your True Will", you may well give me a very detailed and thought out answer. I may be given exactly the same question and come to the conclusion that it is my grandfather who is a decent, honest sort of chap and whose name is William. A.F "One's Death is a gift to Life". AL II v. 66
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Post by Raj Don Yasser on Feb 22, 2017 0:59:13 GMT
I recently watched Arrival and was pleasantly surprised to see Lovecraft-inspired aliens. Anybody else find the film enjoyable? Particularly, I appreciated that the main character explained, albeit minimally, the Whorf hypothesis. In my work as a therapist, I often discover that the subject-predicate nature of the English language seems to compound the impact of traumatic past life experiences on current functioning and, among occultists, can exacerbate "confusing the planes", so to speak.
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Post by sandow on Feb 22, 2017 14:06:34 GMT
Yes I greatly enjoyed Arrival too! If you have not already done so, you may be interested in reading Ted Chiang's short story, "the story of your life", which was used as the basis for the movie. Although very short, the written story digs deeper in the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, and is more explicit about the nature of Time according to the aliens, which explains some aspects of the movie which may appear not completely understandable or self-contradictory -but, no spoilers!
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Post by John Hope on Mar 27, 2017 18:23:09 GMT
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Post by Gregory Peters on May 12, 2018 22:09:26 GMT
As a reference from the KG group on FB, thanks!
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Post by John Hope on May 13, 2018 21:39:47 GMT
As a reference from the KG group on FB, thanks! Very welcome Gregory, you'll definitely enjoy it!
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Post by Raj Don Yasser on Jun 10, 2018 18:16:35 GMT
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